[SciPy-User] Numerical Recipes and scipy

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[SciPy-User] Numerical Recipes and scipy

Peter Parente
Hi all,

I have a question about SciPy and its relation to the code from Numerical Recipes (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html)

I can see that both the SciPy FAQ and code comments today both contain references to the book. I noticed that in 2008 there was a discussion about removing SciPy code derived from the book to avoid infringing on the NR license. (http://mail.scipy.org/pipermail/scipy-dev/2008-December/010446.html

I see that some code was identified and possibly replaced, but there is no distinct end to the activity. Does anyone have an understanding they can share about where SciPy stands today with respect to NR and its license terms?

Thanks,
Pete

(I'm sorry if this is a dupe. I had a problem posting from my subscribed email address.)

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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

Robert Kern-2
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Peter Parente <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have a question about SciPy and its relation to the code from Numerical
> Recipes (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html)
>
> I can see that both the SciPy FAQ and code comments today both contain
> references to the book. I noticed that in 2008 there was a discussion about
> removing SciPy code derived from the book to avoid infringing on the NR
> license.
> (http://mail.scipy.org/pipermail/scipy-dev/2008-December/010446.html)
>
> I see that some code was identified and possibly replaced, but there is no
> distinct end to the activity. Does anyone have an understanding they can
> share about where SciPy stands today with respect to NR and its license
> terms?

There is no NR code in scipy.

--
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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

John ZuHone
In reply to this post by Peter Parente
I for one am curious about the motivation behind the question.

On Oct 10, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Peter Parente <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I have a question about SciPy and its relation to the code from Numerical Recipes (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html)

I can see that both the SciPy FAQ and code comments today both contain references to the book. I noticed that in 2008 there was a discussion about removing SciPy code derived from the book to avoid infringing on the NR license. (http://mail.scipy.org/pipermail/scipy-dev/2008-December/010446.html

I see that some code was identified and possibly replaced, but there is no distinct end to the activity. Does anyone have an understanding they can share about where SciPy stands today with respect to NR and its license terms?

Thanks,
Pete

(I'm sorry if this is a dupe. I had a problem posting from my subscribed email address.)
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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

Peter Parente
I'm considering using SciPy in a commercial application. The SciPy code makes reference to the Numerical Recipes book in various places (https://github.com/scipy/scipy/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=numerical+recipes). The NR license terms restrict the translation and distribution of derivative works, especially for commercial purposes (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html). I polled the list to see if anyone could answer if the references are purely for educational purposes or provenance of the SciPy implementations.

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 5:10 PM, John ZuHone <[hidden email]> wrote:
I for one am curious about the motivation behind the question.

On Oct 10, 2014, at 5:01 PM, Peter Parente <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I have a question about SciPy and its relation to the code from Numerical Recipes (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html)

I can see that both the SciPy FAQ and code comments today both contain references to the book. I noticed that in 2008 there was a discussion about removing SciPy code derived from the book to avoid infringing on the NR license. (http://mail.scipy.org/pipermail/scipy-dev/2008-December/010446.html

I see that some code was identified and possibly replaced, but there is no distinct end to the activity. Does anyone have an understanding they can share about where SciPy stands today with respect to NR and its license terms?

Thanks,
Pete

(I'm sorry if this is a dupe. I had a problem posting from my subscribed email address.)
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Pete

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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

Matthew Brett
Hi,

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Peter Parente <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm considering using SciPy in a commercial application. The SciPy code
> makes reference to the Numerical Recipes book in various places
> (https://github.com/scipy/scipy/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=numerical+recipes).
> The NR license terms restrict the translation and distribution of derivative
> works, especially for commercial purposes
> (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html). I polled the list to see if
> anyone could answer if the references are purely for educational purposes or
> provenance of the SciPy implementations.

Yes, it would be very useful to have a wiki page going through the
various mentions of NR with a one-line record of the check made for NR
code.

Who did these checks originally? Does anyone remember?

Cheers,

Matthew
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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

josef.pktd
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Peter Parente <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm considering using SciPy in a commercial application. The SciPy code
>> makes reference to the Numerical Recipes book in various places
>> (https://github.com/scipy/scipy/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=numerical+recipes).
>> The NR license terms restrict the translation and distribution of derivative
>> works, especially for commercial purposes
>> (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html). I polled the list to see if
>> anyone could answer if the references are purely for educational purposes or
>> provenance of the SciPy implementations.
>
> Yes, it would be very useful to have a wiki page going through the
> various mentions of NR with a one-line record of the check made for NR
> code.
>
> Who did these checks originally? Does anyone remember?

In the mailing list thread that is linked to in the original post we
went over those parts of scipy where code comments referenced NR and
we checked those.  ("we" are the participants on that thread.)
I guess, based on the github search, and based on that the references
to NR that still show up are all only in the "Reference" sections,
that they are only part of the documentation but have no direct link
to the actual implementation.

I remember that there were at least some comments about this for
specific items, but I don't know or remember any details.

Josef


>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
> _______________________________________________
> SciPy-User mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

josef.pktd
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:54 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Matthew Brett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Peter Parente <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I'm considering using SciPy in a commercial application. The SciPy code
>>> makes reference to the Numerical Recipes book in various places
>>> (https://github.com/scipy/scipy/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=numerical+recipes).
>>> The NR license terms restrict the translation and distribution of derivative
>>> works, especially for commercial purposes
>>> (http://www.nr.com/licenses/redistribute.html). I polled the list to see if
>>> anyone could answer if the references are purely for educational purposes or
>>> provenance of the SciPy implementations.
>>
>> Yes, it would be very useful to have a wiki page going through the
>> various mentions of NR with a one-line record of the check made for NR
>> code.
>>
>> Who did these checks originally? Does anyone remember?
>
> In the mailing list thread that is linked to in the original post we
> went over those parts of scipy where code comments referenced NR and
> we checked those.  ("we" are the participants on that thread.)
> I guess, based on the github search, and based on that the references
> to NR that still show up are all only in the "Reference" sections,
> that they are only part of the documentation but have no direct link
> to the actual implementation.
>
> I remember that there were at least some comments about this for
> specific items, but I don't know or remember any details.

PyMatrixID and Savitsky-Golay is more recent code with reference to NR.

the random numer generator fortran file in interpolative has NR as
only reference.

Josef

>
> Josef
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Matthew
>> _______________________________________________
>> SciPy-User mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.scipy.org/mailman/listinfo/scipy-user
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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

Pauli Virtanen-3
In reply to this post by Peter Parente
11.10.2014, 00:01, Peter Parente kirjoitti:
[clip]
> I see that some code was identified and possibly replaced, but there is no
> distinct end to the activity. Does anyone have an understanding they can
> share about where SciPy stands today with respect to NR and its license
> terms?

I am aware of no NR code in Scipy.

References to the book in the documentation are indeed meant to be
educational and do not signify that the algorithms are implemented using
code from the book.

The review in 2008 checked all parts of the code where NR was
referenced, and did not appear to have found any NR code or NR code
translated/obfuscated to Python. Code in one routine was found to have
some similarities in structure and was replaced with a reimplementation.

--
Pauli Virtanen

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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

Pauli Virtanen-3
In reply to this post by josef.pktd
11.10.2014, 05:33, [hidden email] kirjoitti:
[clip]
> PyMatrixID and Savitsky-Golay is more recent code with reference to NR.

The comment on numerical recipes in savgol_coeffs() is about how to
reproduce results mentioned in NR. The code itself is obviously not from NR.

[clip]
> the random numer generator fortran file in interpolative has NR as
> only reference.

The algorithm in Numerical Recipes is originally from D. Knuth, The Art
of Computer Programming, vol 2.

The code in PyMatrixID is neither Knuth's code nor NR's code, but a
reimplementation. The algorithm itself consists of 8 lines of code, so
they share unavoidable similarities.

--
Pauli Virtanen

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Re: Numerical Recipes and scipy

Peter Parente
In reply to this post by Pauli Virtanen-3
Thanks for the insight, Pauli.

To save others from wondering or asking my question again, would it be worth adding to the FAQ or wiki as Matthew suggested?

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 5:36 AM, Pauli Virtanen <[hidden email]> wrote:
11.10.2014, 00:01, Peter Parente kirjoitti:
[clip]
> I see that some code was identified and possibly replaced, but there is no
> distinct end to the activity. Does anyone have an understanding they can
> share about where SciPy stands today with respect to NR and its license
> terms?

I am aware of no NR code in Scipy.

References to the book in the documentation are indeed meant to be
educational and do not signify that the algorithms are implemented using
code from the book.

The review in 2008 checked all parts of the code where NR was
referenced, and did not appear to have found any NR code or NR code
translated/obfuscated to Python. Code in one routine was found to have
some similarities in structure and was replaced with a reimplementation.

--
Pauli Virtanen

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--
Pete

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